Time: At 22:00 on March 26
Groups: Mars 3.0 wechat group
Jiang Tao: founder and President of CSDN, the largest developer community in the world, served as manager of Chinese application development department of Giant Group and deputy general manager of Beijing Kingsoft Company, and co-founded Beijing Herosoft Company.
With over 15 years of working experience in software and Internet, Jiang Tao has successfully led the development of several software projects. He founded the CSDN community in 1999, the Programmer magazine in 2000. In 2011, he co-founded Geek Venture Capital Fund together with Fred Wang, which has invested in more than 100 high-tech startups including OKCoin, Xiaodianpu (small electric store), Lingyun two-wheeled intelligent electric vehicle, Juhe Data (aggregation data) and Jushan data （SequoiaDB）.
Fred Wang: Founder of Mars Finance, chairman of Linekong (HK. 8267), the founding partner of Geek Founders and previous senior deputy president of Kingsoft.
The following is the sorted dialogue scripts.
Fred Wang: Hi, good evening everybody, welcome to the 10th Ten questions with Fred Wang.
Today’s conversation is between CSDN and Geek founder Jiang Tao and me, Jiang Tao is one of my brothers. We are so familiar that I didn't need to search his background information on the internet in deep night. I even didn't know how to define the topic, so I used the topic of How to learn blockchain. At the 100-person conference held by Zero2IPO Venture in Sanya, Yang Xiangyang told me that Jiang Tao was the person who speaks the blockchain most clearly he had ever seen.
I know Jiang Tao, who is in charge of the research and development work of Beijing Kingsoft. I also inform you that I joined Beijing Kingsoft after the interview by Jiang Tao. Three years later, Jiang Tao founded CSDN, while I followed Lei Jun until the eve of Kingsoft's IPO. What has always intrigued me is that Jiang Tao has maintained a great sensitivity to new technologies and trends in a long time.
As for my relationship with Jiang Tao, I can generalize it in a sentence: we are brothers. I want to tell you that we are not the brothers who have drunk wine together, we are brothers who are willing to share money with the other in the poorest time. Now we have much more things to work together. The BTA Blockchain Technology and Applications Summit on March 30th was co-sponsored by CSDN and Mars Finance.
Jiang Tao, let’s start the ten questions.
Fred Wang: Let's take a look at one of the things happened recently, which involves the argument between centralization and decentralization. You've heard about a lot of personal data theft on Facebook, which is probably Zuckerberg's PR in the worst crisis, and the fallout is still spreading. In the past, most people w accuse the mismanagement and emptiness of network security technology, but today, more and more people in the science and technology circles point out that the problem, in the final analysis, is that countless user data is running based on a fully centralized system, even is used without permission, which is very worry and draws concerns of the public on the word of decentralization in the field of blockchain.
In addition, I noticed that Professor Zhang Shousheng, an artificial intelligence expert, pointed out at the previous IT leaders' summit in Shenzhen that "in my ideal world, each person will have his or her own data in the future, which is completely decentralized storage, so that hackers cannot hack the data of every person. And then the individual privacy can be actually protected on the blockchain with some encryption algorithms while making good calculations."
How do you interpret Facebook data theft? How can Alibaba and Tencent not follow Facebook in security of their multi-year operation of centralized big data? What do you think of Professor Zhang's opinion?
Jiang Tao: first of all, the security of decentralized system and centralized system seems to be the same for top hackers, who can attack them without difference. With more nodes in the decentralized system, the security of each node is different, and some nodes may be less protective. Therefore, the centralized system is safer.
The theft of Facebook data is essentially an issue of misuse of user data, and the core issue is the ownership of user data. The operation platform should not have the ownership of user data, and such goal will be better achieved in the blockchain era.
For example, when using blockchain technology in our ID card, you don't need to get all information about me when you need to read the information of my ID card. You just need to know whether my blockchain ID card is real or not. My information is still stored here. How you use my information is recorded on the blockchain. You must acquire my consent before using it.
At present, if KYC is just trying to verify a person's authenticity, but it saves all your information, which leads to a lot of abuse of personal information.
Fred Wang: The topic of Bitcoin is inescapable for anyone who enters the blockchain, so what role does the Bitcoin actually play in the blockchain world? Some people say that most of today's digital currency trading markets revolve around the Bitcoin, currently the largest application of blockchain. Although the analogy of Bitcoin as the digital gold has been accepted by the majority of people, many people will lose all their money if the trend continues. How do you plan to explain the Bitcoin to someone with no technical background?
Jiang Tao: we will form a world of digital assets in the future, and their anchored value on the blockchain is digital gold, which is also known as Bitcoin. Just as the currency in the global economy is endorsed by the US dollar, the base standard currency in the digital currency economy is the Bitcoin.
For non-technical people, you can tell them to deploy digital assets just like to ask them to buy a house for appreciation, or else they will be the poor or have zero assets in the crypto-currency economy in the future.
The best way is to spend 1% of your monthly income on the Bitcoin, which is more reliable than the pension.
Fred Wang: The Ethereum founder Vitalik held the banner of smart contract, making it possible for everyone to issue money. How much value do you think the Ethereum economy brings to the digital currency market? Will there be another Vitalik to end the digital currency economy built by Ethereum?
Jiang Tao: the Bitcoin system has not been significantly updated since the release of version 0.8 in 2013. The emergence of Ethereum in 2014 enabled a platform for smart contracts and decentralized applications.
More than 90 percent of the new projects in the cryptocurrency market are the ICO conducted via Ethereum at present. The Bitcoin's value lies in miners, while Ethereum's value lies in developers. From this point, the Ethereum economy is the real new world economy.
As for ending the Ethereum system, how many people really understand the power of Ethereum? We have experts who have read all the source codes of Ethereum, and their conclusion is to realize all the functions of Ethereum, it is unavoidable to meet the performance challenges.
Although the performance of Ethereum is inadequate, its governance mechanism and overall design are very sophisticated. It is claimed to be a global computer, and the Bitcoin is fuel coin, which has obvious uses: all DApp must pay the machine fee. The design of gas and gas price has a good regulation function for the economic system, and it solves the problem of unlimited expansion of Bitcoin commission fee. Many project developers who claim to surpass the Bitcoin don't really understand the essence of Ethereum system.
There will be more public blockchains in the future, and it is most probably that the Ethereum is replaced by the Ethereum 2.0.
Fred Wang: In nowadays, the blockchain is about to enter the 3.0 era, and there are many talents involving in the combat. Some people are making the OS operating system, some are based on Web base, and some are striving to do a public blockchain with high concurrent processing capacity to support more decentralized or centralized scenarios. It is said that giants are doing cross-chain. Many people do not know how to begin. Are you really optimistic for the EOS? Many people are worried about the responsibility of its founder BM, but they are also looking forward to its new version this June. How do you think of Bytemaster (BM)? What about his Character and ability?
Jiang Tao: Bytemaster (BM) has a perverse personality. In the past, he had quarreled with Satoshi Nakamoto. He has worked with Bitshare team and Steemit team but broke up with them in the end, and he was also quarrelling with Vitalik Buterin. But he does have a high level of technology and is very thoughtful about blockchain.
BM's blog post takes a deep look at blockchain technology and governance, which is well worth reading.
As for EOS, more and more people are optimistic for it. Some people run EOS nodes. The technical feasibility has been verified, reaching 1,300tps. EOS should be a success when it is put online.
Fred Wang: Since its establishment in 1999, CSDN has gathered a large number of technical leaders and computer program enthusiasts. Today, with 52.62 million of registered users, CSDN is still the holy land of the community in the eyes of countless programmers. After all, CSDN has been established for nearly 20 years. In today's popular communities, the microblog has been controlled by VIP users, stars and punsters, the Baidu Post Bar (Baidu Tieba) is facing the aging of products, and the threshold for the establishment of various vertical communities is higher and higher. In the face of the hot wave of blockchain industry, how will CSDN, as is famous for its programmer community, design its future community model? Are there any better incentives?
Jiang Tao: CSDN community is a weak cooperative member relationship, and users are willing to participate in it and it lacks the strong incentive mechanism. Now the new developer community based on Token is a strong cooperative one. The rapid development of Ethereum community and EOS community proves the charm of Token.
DCO will build a new software organization with the spirit of open source, commercial organizations and blockchain incentive mechanism. Software developers will not only share knowledge but also make creation together. To create valuable content or products, maintain the sustainable growth of the value, and form a new type of programmer economy, which are the CSDN's goals in the blockchain era.
With regard to the CSDN community upgrade, we plan to do the overseas CSDN, which is in the face of blockchain developers and ecology as well as for global developers.
Group friend: Many people think that Token is only a part of the community, rather than the key to doing well in the community. Do you think Token incentive is a pain point of the community? Why?
Jiang Tao: Token is a pain point, which is an important means from weak collaboration to strong one. Only strong collaboration can produce value continuously.
In the blockchain era, programmers are closest to money. In the era of software, they need distribution channels, and in the era of Internet, they need services. While in the era of blockchain, programmers are creating Token.
Fred Wang: Da Hongfei designed the public blockchain of NEO, and Shuai Chu designed the Quantum Blockchain (QTUM). Recently, Mr. Mao designed Arcblock. Chen Rong who joined the Ten Questions with Fred Wang not long before designed the ELA. As a blockchain practitioner, if I want to write my own DApp scenario on the public chain, how to choose the public chain? I asked this question for many friends who were confused with it.
Jiang Tao: first you need to consider: 1) tools are complete; 2) the community should be rich. In choosing public chains, developing ecology is more important than other factors.
The Ethereum has dozens of times as many developers as all other public chains, but each public chain, including EOS, NEO and QTUM, has its own characteristics. However, unless its specialty is available, Dapp development is still preferred to Ethereum.
As for Ethereum's efficiency, there are many solutions available. For example, to develop the Ethereum games, the transactions and data can be processed at the off-chain centralized center at first, and then verify them in batches on the chain, It doesn’t need to make transaction first on the chain each time. It is the current trend to remain part of the data on the chain.
Fred Wang: A few days ago, one of your articles was flooded on the screen in wechat groups. You proposed a new word of DCO about the research, development, management and organization in the blockchain era. Previously, the solution proposed by Vitalik of Ethereum was DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization). You mentioned that the three major characteristics of DCO are no requirement for complete decentralization, no requirement for complete certification of monetary rights, and no requirement for complete automatic governance. In my opinion, DCO is a further optimization of Ethereum DAO's idealized intention, or even utopian design. When did you notice the limitations of the DAO? How did you come up with the more pragmatic DCO? What inspired you? Can you give us some examples?
Jiang Tao: first of all, looking from the development process of the successful open source software, although they are community organizations, the community can only develop excellent software, including Linux and Python, when it is driven by the master soul. The development of excellent software requires the whole show. So the completely decentralized way of self-organization is not necessarily as efficient as we have seen. Bitcoin technology is now developing slowly, and the key factor is that it lacks of the whole show.
Ideal is the beacon, its grounding also depends on the combination of Chinese and foreign technologies. Historically speaking, the free software of pure idealism, such as GNU, has not been popular in the market, DAO has not been accepted, nor has decentralized fundamentalism. Communities like the Rchain adopt a fully autonomous approach, with each function requiring community members to vote, and the overall progress is extremely slow.
We should leave the decision to each project sponsor, who can choose the core decision, either in hierarchical or flat approach.
We have also accumulated a number of valuable mechanisms in the corporate governance, such as the separation of AB equities, ownership and decision-making, which will be designed into DCO.
Fred Wang: I know that you have known a lot of masters of traditional Chinese medicine and metaphysics, and you have kept your enthusiasm for Tai Chi and Weiqi. the Longquan Temple that I first heard it was also mentioned by you. How do you maintain this multi-dimensional openness? Do they get along with each other in your frame of mind? What do you think of the serious blockchain fragmentation in the view of the public not long ago? Some people are extremely loathed, some warship them as if they were gods, some stay at a respectful distance from, while some are flocking to it in a hurry. I always think that you are very tolerant, a slowcoach who is not as impatient as I am. Why do you mention for many times to run into the blockchain this time?
Jiang Tao: As for inclusiveness, I think there are too many things we don't know about the whole world. Dark matter and dark energy make up 96% of the universe. All scientific knowledge can only see and try to explain 4% of the world. It doesn't explain everything that happens in this world either. So we should be open to the unknown and keep in awe. After all, science is iterating over and over again to improving itself. We should keep such a state of mind ourselves.
The blockchain is a multi-dimensional economy and world, it is not the one-dimensional economy that is measured by money any longer. It can change the form of the organization, superposing multiple value dimensions, which also leads to its accelerating evolution in development. Therefore, "running into the blockchain" is not because of speculation in the currency trading or media outlet, but because of the evolution speed of the blockchain technology itself, the technology and speed of projects are in the exponential growth from the plane information Internet to the three-dimensional value Internet, and it must run to catch it up.
I have also met many cross-border friends through the blockchain, including cultural relics collection, medical health, film culture, and friends from the metaphysical world. Each of them can declare their own blockchain spirit, which is very interesting.
Fred Wang: In the age of blockchain, some people make great efforts to advocate the decentralization. This reminds me of the time in the western world when a large number of utopian socialism theorists emerged such as Saint-Simon, Fourier and Owen, they wrote out everything theoretically with the best wishes, however, the theory successfully landing in the end is the revolution driven by Marx, Lenin and Mao Zedong that combined the historical conditions and its own national conditions at that time. The relationship between decentralization and centralization is more like the integration of capitalist private market economy with the economic model that advocates necessary macro-control. Do you think so?
Will today's talk of decentralization be too bookish? I'm more or less skeptical that there should be enough scenes that are centralized over a fair number of public and coalition blockchains. Is it possible that there will be a lot of centralized applications based on the decentralization?
Jiang Tao: The complete decentralization is too idealized. The more practical approach should be the superposition of decentralization and centralization, so that you can take what you need and show what you can do.
Vitalik Buterin is actively promoting the PLASMA project of Ethereum, a layered Ethereum system, but it is not a completely decentralized and flat design. The decentralization is the essence of blockchain, but the centralized system also has many advantages, which will be most practical in combination.
Fred Wang: How time flies. Last year, I often heard that facial attractiveness is justice, and now I hear most people start talking about Code is law everywhere. This phrase has become a beacon for many programmers to light up the future of blockchain. Many people think that the era of procedural heroes will approach again. How do you understand Code is law as an excellent programmer?
Jiang Tao: the universe has laws to operate, and so does the life. The code of life is written in DNA, and the laws of the universe are the laws of physics and the mathematical formulas as we see. So, at this point, the God is also a programmer whose programs are always implemented without ending.
The blockchain world is simulating such ecology, closer to the real state of the universe, which is Code is law.
Fred Wang: The development of blockchain technology and applications is bound to involve some black-market trade in the dark web and other industries that are banned in many countries, such as pornography and gambling. How do programmers control their boundaries of justice?
Jiang Tao: In regard with the definition of justice, different people have different cognitions, and its concept has more than one dimension. For programmers, our most fundamental task is technological innovation, using technology to explore new possibilities for human society.
All technologies have positive and negative aspects in use, and the boundary of programmers depends on the boundary of humanity. Pornography, for example, is the most enthusiastic industry to use new technology because its users are willing to make trials.
Fred Wang: How do you plan to introduce this unprecedented opportunity to a fresh graduate? If you were to write computer network code at the technological frontline today, where would you start? What specific role do you personally play in the industrial leap of CSDN towards blockchain ? Do you think you're ready?
Jiang Tao: with the development of AI and blockchain, our future life will be decided and run by programs, so it is very useful for college students to spend three to four months learning how to program no matter what they do in the future. As Yuval Noah Harari said in the Brief History of the Future(Une BrÈVe Histoire de L'avenir), in the future there will be a "prodigy", and most people will become a "useless class". To become a “prodigy", one must learn how to program.
As for CSDN's blockchain industry jump, I am mainly serving as a evangelist and resource organizer, and we are building a team of post-1990s developers to build a new generation of developer economy platform.
Fred Wang: It's time to talk about the big shots. Among all the programmers you know, who is the best in contemporaries? Who's the best in the Internet age? Who are you most bullish on in the blockchain era? Please say three. What do you think is the quality of a good programmer? What is the most deficiency need to overcome when a technical personnel approaches the frontline?
Jiang Tao: The contemporary programmer I know is Liang Zhaoxin. But what I admire most is Turbo Pascal, Delphi and Anders Hejlsberg, the inventor of C# and the most envious person is John Carmack.
In the age of the Internet, Google's Jeff Dean is a super-prodigy, who dominated the map reduce, Bigtable, Google Brain and Tensorflow.
The leading programmers in the blockchain era should have the ability to gather the community and express themselves well. For example, the articles written by Vitalik Buterin are very profound, concise and powerful.
The domestic programmers are not technology prodigies but product ones, including Zhang Xiaolong, Zhang Yiming and Wang Xing.
Larry Wall, an inventor of the Perl language, famously said that good programmers have three virtues: Laziness, Impatience and hubris. Because laziness, you should write a labor-saving procedures and do not repeat the work; Because of impatience, you should solve the problem as soon as possible. The arrogance and extreme confidence gives you the confidence to write (or maintain) programs that others can't find a fault.
The key ability of a good programmer is to simplify, get to the root of the matter, and to think intrinsically.
Programmers' shortcomings are mechanistic, lacking empathy, treating all human collaboration as machines and logics, and everything is either black or white as they have no ability of grayscale processing.
Fred Wang: What books have you read recently? Could you recommend some websites you often visit?
Jiang Tao: I read books every week. Books are the most valuable exchange of ideas. In fact, those who have written books will understand that it is not easy to collect their thoughts and stories into books. So the best sellers and classics are very valuable.
90% of books on my shelves, including Mao Zedong's Anthology, are bought on the Kongfuzi website.
I would like to recommend a book on making pills of immortality and cultivating vital energy, named How to Feel at Ease and How to Be Empty, which is very powerful as it is narrate Buddhism in the manner similar to the way that science students write papers.
I do a lot of surfing on the Internet, including Medium, Techmeme, Hacker News, and Wait But Why that is worthy reading.
Fred Wang: Thank you Jiang Tao for sharing your experience with us today, and thank you for coming to the Mars 3.0 wechat group today.
Today is the tenth Ten Questions with Fred Wang. in the twinkling of an eye, 30 days have been passed since the first Ten Questions with Fred Wang on February 24, 2018, during this period, we have made conversations with 10 opinion leaders and industry leaders, they are Charles Xue, Shuai Chu, Chen Weixing, Zeng Ming, Li Xiaolai, Zhu XiaoHu, Yang Ning, Guo Hongcai, Chen Rong and Jiang Tao, We have drawn great concerns from the circles of the internet, blockchain, investment, media industry and the public.
The Ten Questions with Fred Wang, with characters of Dialoguing with thinking pioneers and facing the location with highest waves and strongest wind, closely tracks the hot issues of public opinion, deeply explores the value of the topic and keep listening and questioning to continuously delivers positive energy, and devote itself to build a widely spreading Internet-based finance interview brand with high quality and strong influence.
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